Comments on: Deconstrcuting the Biblical “Fall of Man”: Insight Into The Source Of Our Misery—Ancient And Modern http://emergent-culture.com/deconstructing-the-biblical-fall-of-man-insight-into-the-source-of-our-ancient-and-modern-misery/ Making Sense of the Human - Planetary Condition: Demystifying the Past, Unraveling the Present & Anticipating the Future Wed, 08 Feb 2012 00:26:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Rohaan Solare http://emergent-culture.com/deconstructing-the-biblical-fall-of-man-insight-into-the-source-of-our-ancient-and-modern-misery/comment-page-1/#comment-55278 Rohaan Solare Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:16:51 +0000 http://emergent-culture.com/?p=2677#comment-55278 @Walter You argue as if the Hebrew/Mesopotamian myths you describe had some sort of universal validity to them. Even if your interpretation is accurate, the stories have only regional and temporal validity at most. They would apply only to degenerate, militaristic cultures aka the crucible of imperial civilizations. Imperial civilizations are by definition dysfunctional and pathological. There are various types of social orders. The existence of egalitarian and matriarchal societies elsewhere show that the type of culture is dependent on environmental setting. I suggest the work of <a href="http://bit.ly/CFeKn" rel="nofollow">James Demeo </a>for an understanding into the environmental forces that shape cultures. Environment shapes behavior. Myths reflect the environmental setting and humans then rationalize their behavior. @Walter You argue as if the Hebrew/Mesopotamian myths you describe had some sort of universal validity to them. Even if your interpretation is accurate, the stories have only regional and temporal validity at most.
They would apply only to degenerate, militaristic cultures aka the crucible of imperial civilizations. Imperial civilizations are by definition dysfunctional and pathological. There are various types of social orders. The existence of egalitarian and matriarchal societies elsewhere show that the type of culture is dependent on environmental setting. I suggest the work of James Demeo for an understanding into the environmental forces that shape cultures. Environment shapes behavior. Myths reflect the environmental setting and humans then rationalize their behavior.

]]> By: Walter R. Mattfeld http://emergent-culture.com/deconstructing-the-biblical-fall-of-man-insight-into-the-source-of-our-ancient-and-modern-misery/comment-page-1/#comment-54718 Walter R. Mattfeld Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:30:48 +0000 http://emergent-culture.com/?p=2677#comment-54718 Agreed there exists "symbolic" messages in myths. I have read and quote Campbell extensively in my research at my website. He stated the Hebrews inverted the earlier Mesopotamian myths to refute them and I agree with him. The Hebrews are seeking to explain "why the world is the way it is." "Why is this world full of danger and strife? Man slaying fellowman, animals slaying each other and man?" The biblical narrator understands this violence and bloodshed was _not_ always present, in the World; for him God intended a peaceful, harmonious, strife-free world. The biblical narrator claims that strife and violence and bloodshed is the result of the disobedience of human and animal wills to God's will, thus the reason God decides to destroy animal and man with a flood as both have corrupted God's way, which is peace and harmony and no shedding of blood. Science understands strife, bloodshed and killing have always existed as its how Nature keeps things in balance. Unlike the Hebrews the Mesopotamians understood man was a killer, liar and cheat because his gods were killers, liars and cheats. Man could be no better than the sinner-rebel-gods he had been made in the image of. It was the gods' fault that rebellion, murder and strife existed not man's. The Hebrews denied this, God is righteous, he doesn't commit murder, the blame for evil acts (bloodshed) is dumped on Man (Adam) absolving God, whereas the Mesopotamians blamed their gods. So there is your "symbolism": the world if full of evil, rebellion, murder, and strife because a Man (Adam) rebelled and disobeyed his god (Genesis) Versus the gods being rebels, murderers, cheats and liars and they made man in their image. Versus Science: The world has always been a dangerous place as its Nature's way: The living must feed upon the living, bloodshed is necasary for life to continue; "survival of the species: kill or be killed." Regards, Agreed there exists “symbolic” messages in myths. I have read and quote Campbell extensively in my research at my website. He stated the Hebrews inverted the earlier Mesopotamian myths to refute them and I agree with him. The Hebrews are seeking to explain “why the world is the way it is.” “Why is this world full of danger and strife? Man slaying fellowman, animals slaying each other and man?” The biblical narrator understands this violence and bloodshed was _not_ always present, in the World; for him God intended a peaceful, harmonious, strife-free world.

The biblical narrator claims that strife and violence and bloodshed is the result of the disobedience of human and animal wills to God’s will, thus the reason God decides to destroy animal and man with a flood as both have corrupted God’s way, which is peace and harmony and no shedding of blood. Science understands strife, bloodshed and killing have always existed as its how Nature keeps things in balance. Unlike the Hebrews the Mesopotamians understood man was a killer, liar and cheat because his gods were killers, liars and cheats. Man could be no better than the sinner-rebel-gods he had been made in the image of. It was the gods’ fault that rebellion, murder and strife existed not man’s.

The Hebrews denied this, God is righteous, he doesn’t commit murder, the blame for evil acts (bloodshed) is dumped on Man (Adam) absolving God, whereas the Mesopotamians blamed their gods. So there is your “symbolism”: the world if full of evil, rebellion, murder, and strife because a Man (Adam) rebelled and disobeyed his god (Genesis) Versus the gods being rebels, murderers, cheats and liars and they made man in their image. Versus Science: The world has always been a dangerous place as its Nature’s way: The living must feed upon the living, bloodshed is necasary for life to continue; “survival of the species: kill or be killed.”
Regards,

]]> By: Rohaan Solare http://emergent-culture.com/deconstructing-the-biblical-fall-of-man-insight-into-the-source-of-our-ancient-and-modern-misery/comment-page-1/#comment-54217 Rohaan Solare Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:27:43 +0000 http://emergent-culture.com/?p=2677#comment-54217 @Walter You are taking a literalist approach to bibilical scripture. There are figments of historical veracity mixed in, but most of the subject-objects are symbolic. Decoding myths is no easy task, but the literalist approach misses the entire point of symbolic language. @Walter You are taking a literalist approach to bibilical scripture. There are figments of historical veracity mixed in, but most of the subject-objects are symbolic. Decoding myths is no easy task, but the literalist approach misses the entire point of symbolic language.

]]> By: Walter R. Mattfeld http://emergent-culture.com/deconstructing-the-biblical-fall-of-man-insight-into-the-source-of-our-ancient-and-modern-misery/comment-page-1/#comment-54006 Walter R. Mattfeld Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:40:32 +0000 http://emergent-culture.com/?p=2677#comment-54006 You said your interest wasn't "where" the Garden of Eden _is_ but rather the import of the concept of a "Paradise Lost" in Western religious belief. I have been researching Eden for over 40 years from an anthropological point of view. My website, www.bibleorigins.net has several articles on Eden, noting the ideas of earlier scholars over the past 150 years. The biblical Eden account explains "why" man was created: To care for a god's garden in a location called Eden. It also explains why man has wisdom like a god but not immortality like a god. These motifs appear in earlier Mesopotamian myths. It is understood that the Hebrews are refuting the Mesopotamian account of why man was created, why he has wisdom like a god and why he doesn't have immortality. The Mesopotamians understood man was created to care for a god's garden in the edin, the floodplain of ancient Sumer in Mesopoamia. His creator denied him at first wisdom and immortality. Later, man acquires illegally the godly wisdom denied him. Eden's serpent is a recast of the Sumerian/Babylonian gods who bore the epiteth usumgal meaning "great serpent" they offered man the food that would cause his death and denied food that could give him immortality. For all the details visit my website. By the way Eden is Sumerian Edin, and the Garden in Eden is a recast of Eridu in Edin where in myth man was first created and warned by his god, ""don''t eat the food of death, you will die (As god warned Adam and Eve). This info has been around for over 100 years and is in old tomes written circa 1854-1923 by PHD scholars at universities and Seminaries. I have also published ntwo books on the subject in 2010: (1) Eden's Serpent: Its Mesopotamian Origins, (2) The Garden of Eden Myth: Its Pre-biblical Origin in Mesopotamian Myths. Both books are available via Amazon.com. You said your interest wasn’t “where” the Garden of Eden _is_ but rather the import of the concept of a “Paradise Lost” in Western religious belief. I have been researching Eden for over 40 years from an anthropological point of view. My website, http://www.bibleorigins.net has several articles on Eden, noting the ideas of earlier scholars over the past 150 years. The biblical Eden account explains “why” man was created: To care for a god’s garden in a location called Eden. It also explains why man has wisdom like a god but not immortality like a god.

These motifs appear in earlier Mesopotamian myths. It is understood that the Hebrews are refuting the Mesopotamian account of why man was created, why he has wisdom like a god and why he doesn’t have immortality. The Mesopotamians understood man was created to care for a god’s garden in the edin, the floodplain of ancient Sumer in Mesopoamia. His creator denied him at first wisdom and immortality. Later, man acquires illegally the godly wisdom denied him. Eden’s serpent is a recast of the Sumerian/Babylonian gods who bore the epiteth usumgal meaning “great serpent” they offered man the food that would cause his death and denied food that could give him immortality.

For all the details visit my website. By the way Eden is Sumerian Edin, and the Garden in Eden is a recast of Eridu in Edin where in myth man was first created and warned by his god, “”don”t eat the food of death, you will die (As god warned Adam and Eve). This info has been around for over 100 years and is in old tomes written circa 1854-1923 by PHD scholars at universities and Seminaries. I have also published ntwo books on the subject in 2010: (1) Eden’s Serpent: Its Mesopotamian Origins, (2) The Garden of Eden Myth: Its Pre-biblical Origin in Mesopotamian Myths. Both books are available via Amazon.com.

]]> By: Rohaan http://emergent-culture.com/deconstructing-the-biblical-fall-of-man-insight-into-the-source-of-our-ancient-and-modern-misery/comment-page-1/#comment-10101 Rohaan Sun, 09 Aug 2009 21:31:57 +0000 http://emergent-culture.com/?p=2677#comment-10101 @ Amie Thank you for expressing your interest. Part two is in the pipeline and may not be out for awhile as I am focused on my calendrical work at the moment. I will however nutshell it for you. The mythical Garden of Eden refers to a time when there was plenty of land, water and resources to go around. Then very abruptly the climate changed in what is now North Africa(Sahara desert), Middle East, and Central Asia. That event which happened around 6000 years ago turned the "Garden of Eden" into a fight for survival hell zone of devastation. Western civilizations/culture is the aftermath of that event. The following link is a good and brief synopsis of James DeMeo's book Saharasia. <a href="http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/DeMeo.html" rel="nofollow">Saharasia: The Origins of Patriarchal Authoritarian Culture in Ancient Desertification </a> @ Amie Thank you for expressing your interest. Part two is in the pipeline and may not be out for awhile as I am focused on my calendrical work at the moment. I will however nutshell it for you.

The mythical Garden of Eden refers to a time when there was plenty of land, water and resources to go around. Then very abruptly the climate changed in what is now North Africa(Sahara desert), Middle East, and Central Asia. That event which happened around 6000 years ago turned the "Garden of Eden" into a fight for survival hell zone of devastation. Western civilizations/culture is the aftermath of that event. The following link is a good and brief synopsis of James DeMeo's book Saharasia. Saharasia: The Origins of Patriarchal Authoritarian Culture in Ancient Desertification

]]> By: Amie http://emergent-culture.com/deconstructing-the-biblical-fall-of-man-insight-into-the-source-of-our-ancient-and-modern-misery/comment-page-1/#comment-10009 Amie Thu, 06 Aug 2009 10:22:28 +0000 http://emergent-culture.com/?p=2677#comment-10009 Where is part 2? :-) Where is part 2? :-)

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